[szuppo]

I'm not sure what your experience with these weapons are but figured I would ask...opinions welcome from all.
I'm undecided on a dedicated long range rifle. I keep going back and forth between the Remington 700 Target Tactical and the 700 XCR Long Range rifle.
I was planning on mounting a Schmidt & Bender 5-25x56mm Police Marksman II LP scope with Badger rings. Do you think this is too much scope?
Larue offers a Combo/ LT-719 QD Ultra-Low Mount, Eagle Cheek Pad and LT 700 Rail that would work with a Leupold but not the S&B becuase it is a 34mm main tube.
If I go with the Leupold and Larue Combo I am looking at the Mark 4 ER/T 8.5-25x50mm M1 Front Focal Plane. My current shooting range is maxed out at 500 yds. but I plan on buying 20 plus acres and will have room to shoot there.
As far as the rifles go, which would you choose between the two and what glass/mount system?
Any opinions would be greatly appreciated.....

 

[nycstripes]

If you have the budget for the Schmidt&Bender scope ($3000) I would personally prefer to have a custom rifle built on a Remington 700 action and put the money into a better barrel, stock work, trigger and you'll have plenty left over for a great 4.5-14 or 6.5-20 power Leupold tactical scope, mounts and bases.

http://swfa.com/Leupold-45-14x40-Mark-4 ... P2550.aspx

Hard to beat a custom rifle. Not that much more in cost, but the accuracy potential is huge in comparison. You can have the rifle chambered to maximize potential of a certain ammo as well like Federal Gold Medal Match 168gr bullets. Mine has an Obermeyer match chamber for that ammo. I shoot mostly hand loaded ammo, but it is essentially the same quality and accuracy.

Judging by the cost of the scope system you were looking into, this would probably be a better option than plunking down $3k on glass to put on top of a factory rifle. This route would give you a fully custom rifle and excellent glass for about the same money.


Here's one of mine built on a Rem700
McMillan A2 stock with stainless pillar bedding
trued action, Shilen recoil lug, trued bolt with Sako Extractor
Jewell stainless trigger
Hart 1in12 twist heavy undersized HV barrel
Obermeyer match chamber
Leupold M1 3.5-10x40mm tactical scope with Mark4 bases/rings
Oversized bolt knob
Badger Ordinance steel floor plate
11 degree target crown on barrel

[/img]

 

[nycstripes]

Here's some more specific information I posted for someone who asked a similar question on another website I belong to.
_____________________

You can build one for less. Buy a Remington 700 rifle in 308. I went with a blank 308 action with no barrel/trigger/stock so I could choose my components.

Rem700 action $360 or start with a complete rifle and sell off the parts you do not wish to stay with. A used Remington 700 BDL is a cheap way to go. The older rifles wee generally made a little better and can be found cheaply.

Holland recoil lug $35 http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=6...ct/RECOIL_LUGS

Custom Stainless barrel Hart, Shilen, Obermeyer, Douglas, Pac-Nor, Lilja Matter of preference really, most are similarly priced. I have custom rifles with nearly all of the mentioned brand barrels, all are terrific shooters.
A custom barrel blank will run approximately $250-300

Trigger...Jewell. The Best. $200 If you stay with the stock Rem700 trigger you can save $150 by just spending $50 to have the OEM trigger tuned up a bit.

Stock. Preference here. I like McMillan A2 stocks but the standard Remington PSS tactical stock is good too. Either one will be needing stainless pillar bedding work which adds $150 to the overall cost of the stock. The OEM Remington PSS stock made by HS Precision costs about $250-300, the McMillan costs about $450-550 depending upon the model. If you got the rifle with a good stock, then you'll be only out for the bedding work. Proper bedding insures that torquing the rifle down into the stock will not effect the accuracy.


Bottom Metal. If you buy a Remington 700 with a BDL floorplate, you're ok with that to start. If you want to upgrade to a steel floorplate that costs more and you'll have to have it finished to keep it from rusting. $275 +finishing. Optional, just adds strength. The OEM floorplate is aluminum.
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=6760 ... LOORPLATES

Tactical bolt knob, optional but nice. About $100 installed.

Gunsmithing...important part. Choosing a good gunsmith. Look into turn around times, good smiths have somewhat of a backlog. 3-4 months is average. Longer than that, I would not wait for.

I use Mike Bryant in Texas. http://www.bryantcustom.com/index.html
Very nice man, great work and attention to detail.

He'll true the action which guarantees straight and complete contact of all metal surfaces where they're supposed to. Assembly of the rifle is also very important with regard to alignment of the parts/chamber work. His time will cost about $500. When you get the completed rifle back, its going to be very competitive.

Mike's got one my my Winchester model 70 deer rifles and I am having him re-barrel the rifle in a custom chambering . 6.5-284 Winchester. He's putting on a new Shilen stainless #3 contour barrel in that caliber. The rifle has a new McMillan stock, bedding work on the stock, adjusted factory trigger

Other smiths are available here. http://benchrest.com/inlink/index.php?s ... esults=100

Also, some of the barrel makers also offer in house gunsmithing like Hart and Shilen. They're also very good to deal with.

By my calculations, you're at $1700 without a steel floor plate, tactical bolt knob or the Jewell trigger. If you buy a used Rem700 rifle just to tear apart, you can even save some more money. Pawn shops generally have a good supply of Rem700 PSS rifles in 308. Getting one at a decent price will get you the action and police style stock.

 

[ullie]

I'm undecided on a dedicated long range rifle

...i would suggest a SAKO TRG 22 for a medium to long range rifle...or a SAKO TRG 42 in 300 Winchester Mag as a long range rifle..practically speaking...the 308 Winchester is pushing it at ~ 800 yards...the 300 Winchester Mag is good for well past 1000 yards...and does everything better closer in...the SAKO TRG is arguably the most accurate rifle in it's class...spooky accurate !

... http://www.sako.fi/sakotrg.php

... http://www.sako.fi/sakotrgmodels.php?trg22

... http://www.sako.fi/sakotrgmodels.php?trg42

...the Schmidt & Bender Police Marksman ll line are arguably the best tactical scopes avaliable...bar none...however... the Nightforce scopes come so very very close that i feel you can't justify the price of a S&B...at roughly twice the cost...

...i would recomend either of these three scopes for the TRG 22..if you'll be shooting mostly under 600 yards...i would go with the 3.5x15...although extra magnification at that range doesn't hunt...shooting greater distances than 600 yards i would go with the 5.5-22...i would go with the 5.5-22 on the TRG 42...either way...i recomend going with the 50 mm objective bell...
http://nightforceoptics.com/nightforces ... 5x56_.html

...this one gives you a first focal plane reticle...

http://nightforceoptics.com/nightforces ... 50_f1.html

...this one a little more magnification...

http://nightforceoptics.com/nightforces ... 22x56.html

...i suggest going with the NP-R1 reticle and the zero stop turrets...

... http://nightforceoptics.com/nightforces ... pflyer.pdf

...this picantinny rail allows you to use Mil Standard 1913 rings...

... http://www.sako.fi/pdf/specs/TRGtactrail.pdf

...or you can use the tactical mount for scopes with up to 50 mm objective bells...it has ~ a 30 MOA positive ramp...good for extreamly long shots...

... http://www.sako.fi/pdf/specs/TRGtactmount.pdf

...this tread has some information about mounting a scope on a TRG...

... http://www.sigarms556.com/viewtopic.php ... hlight=trg

...the SAKO TRG is out of the box magic...and spooky accurate !... :wink:

 

[ShootingSight]

On the subject of triggers - Jewell makes an excellent single stage, but if you want a 2 stage trigger, the best is from X-Treme. It is a true 2-stage, 4 lever trigger that is fully adjustable for first and second stage pull, first stage travel, second stage creep (which can be set to below zero, if you want to use it as a single stage trigger), overtravel.

It is available in a tactical version, where the trigger shoe and the first rail are integral, but it is also available where the first lever is an Anschutz style rail, and the trigger shoe is adjustable for position and cant, as well as being reversible to give you a straight trigger shoe, or a curved one.

It is a drop in for the Rem 700.

Art

 

[szuppo]

Thanks for the responses. Gives me a lot to think about.. Some great inforamtion and members here!!!

 

[nycstripes]

Other things to consider are:
1- you can build the same rifle I described based upon just about any action you like. Remington, Winchester, Nesika Bay, FN Special Police, Viper, Bat, etc.

2- you can choose any long range caliber you like.
223 (fast twist), 243 Winchester 308Winchester,6mm XC, 6mm BR, 260 Rem, 6.5 Grendel, 6.5 Creedmoor, 6.5-284 Win, 6.5x55 Swiss, 30-06 Sprg, 7mm Rem Mag, 300Win Mag, 338 Lapua

You don't need a heavy recoil caliber to achieve success at long range. Just a quality caliber and components. The old standby's have the advantage of established ballistics tables like the 223, 308, 30-06, 300WM and others that have been shot competitively for decades. Some of the newer calibers might require you to develop some of your own ballistics data. The diminutive 6BR is quite successful at 1000 yards and is very pleasant to shoot. I have more that one rifle chambered in that caliber and one was set up as a 1000 yard rifle. Fast twist with long heavy bullets with excellent accuracy/little recoil.
Its important to pick something you can get quality brass/bullets for. Look at the statistical data/ equipment lists for the 1000 yard shooters and F-Class shooters. They're using the best components available and their choice of calibers are listed too.

good luck with your choices.

 

[ShootingSight]

Also look at the 6XC cartridge developed by David Tubb. This guy has been national champion something like 6 times, and worked with Sierra and Norma to custom make bullets and brass to his specification. It is similar to a 6BR, but the shoulders are set forward slightly, so there is an increase inthe powder charge, to give it slightly better velocity. Both these cases use the .308 bolt face,so they will fit into a Rem short action.

You also have a substantial stock decision to make: tube or traditional.

Tube stocks are becoming big in long range. Gary Eliseo makes my favorite, the other is MAK. These are basically aluminum tubes that a standard Remington action will fit into, and you either screw or glue the action inside the tube. You then screw on a float tube, scope rail, adjustable butt stock, trigger, and a lower onto it, and you have an AR style stock on your bolt action, no bedding required.

I personally went for the Eliseo tube stockafter getting pissed at McMillan when they told me a stock was a 6 month wait, while Eliseo indicated he had inventory, and the only delay was me chosing what color I wanted it powder coated ... I decided on orange, though it ended up being such a subdued color, most guys can't even see the rifle in this picture.

I also ended up adding a 6" bloop tube to a 32" barrel, but this was primarily due to my failing eyesight, and a desire to get the front sight a little further out.

Yet another subject to play with is sights. Depending on what you want to do, you will need either irons, or a scope, or both.

For irons, Al Warner makes the best and most expensive rear sight out there, though I like the Centra sight for the money. For front sights, you will want a 30mm front tube. X-Treme is my favorite (endorsed by John Whidden, the current 2x National Champion). 30mm are THE front to have, and give you enough field of view to see the target, and the number boards, reducing the chance of a cross fire (we've all been there).

For scope choice, you have lots of options. Schmidt-Bender is the gold standard, but this scope will set you back $3,000+. NightForce is excellent at half that price. Luepold is also excellent, at slightly less. Id recommend the largest front objective you can afford, ideally a 50+ mm objective lens, as this defines your light gathering power. Magnification up to around 24x is good. More than that picks up a little too much pulse.

Art

 

[nycstripes]

that chick scares me a little

 

[sigdizzy]

I'm not sure what your experience with these weapons are but figured I would ask...opinions welcome from all.
I'm undecided on a dedicated long range rifle. .

szuppo. Ullie has given the best advice so far. Sako TRG either 22 or 42, I use both and would not in any way shape or form be convinced to bastardize a rem 700 or savage (more accurate than remington lately) action with add ons to try and rival the refinement and accuracy of the Sako. when you go to sell your homeade item you will get near nothing for it which means it has no value, yet the Sako will still have value, why? because its worth more to the discerning shooter.....simply put....its a better rifle. Stick with the S&B and buy a Sako. I use NF on the ones I shoot and will replace the glass with hensholdt once my wife gets to work :lol: Off the shelf euorpean sniper rifles rival the accuracy of all customs.

 

[Gremlin]

What sigdizzyu said...SAKO rocks!

This is my TRG-22 in .308

 

[nycstripes]

I'm not sure what your experience with these weapons are but figured I would ask...opinions welcome from all.
I'm undecided on a dedicated long range rifle. .

szuppo. Ullie has given the best advice so far. Sako TRG either 22 or 42, I use both and would not in any way shape or form be convinced to bastardize a rem 700 or savage (more accurate than remington lately) action with add ons to try and rival the refinement and accuracy of the Sako. when you go to sell your homeade item you will get near nothing for it which means it has no value, yet the Sako will still have value, why? because its worth more to the discerning shooter.....simply put....its a better rifle. Stick with the S&B and buy a Sako. I use NF on the ones I shoot and will replace the glass with hensholdt once my wife gets to work :lol: Off the shelf euorpean sniper rifles rival the accuracy of all customs.

I believe the Sako platform is terrific, but no reason to bash another person's choice in a rifle system.

I think semi-custom rifles are terrific but home made or bastardized is a littlle snooty of you. No value?? please. Nobody builds a rifle to gain value. People build rifles to shoot. If the shooter chooses a Rem40X action to build upon, then it will always remain a 40x.
If the shooter chooses a Nesika Bay tactical action or similar, its still going to be worth something as as used rifle. A used rifle is just a sum of its parts. Used barrels are considered to be used. A new barrel is an additional $500 investment. Once replaced, its essentially new again.

If you want to purchase a safe queen for the collection, then by all means do so. There are too many competent gunsmiths out the to name them all, but I could readily build something comparable to the Sako on a custom action like a Nesika Bay and run right with it every step of the way. The Sako would hardly shoot circles around anything a shooter could build for similar funds without having to resort to attitude because its a Sako.

Just keep in mind that the USMC M40A1 is no chump in the field even though its just a lowly Remington. FYI, Savage tactical rifles are the new kids on the block, not Remington or Winchester,

Carry on.

 

[ShootingSight]

I think it depends on what you want to do with it. People who build commercial rifles are stuck with needing to put together a product that will sell, so choosing a trigger which is 80%, but costs 20% is an effective solution to putting together a very good rifle, which is affordable. If you want to build a competition gun, however, the 80% solution is not acceptable. This is why the top shooters almost never have a stock gun. They have all upgraded components.

Sure, a custom built gun might not have the resale value, cause the next guy might not appreciate, or agree with the choices you made, but the reality is that a top rifle is almost always a custom built system.

So, if you want something that is good, and keeps resale value, get a commercial gun. If you want something that can hold its own in competition, you will build something that is customized.

Art

 

[nycstripes]

Well put.

 

[sigdizzy]

szuppo, I don't think the S&B is too much scope at all. I had one but traded it for a NF, not because the NF was better or clearer but because it was more powerful. I did like the glass in the S&B better though. Its much better glass in my opinion than the Leupold Mark 4 I use.

 

[sigdizzy]

szuppo. I can't recommend enough trying out a Sako TRG especially if you don't reload. they digest more types of ammo than most and are simply a joy to shoot. The Canadian Forces Sniper team uses them with S&B optics.

 

[szuppo]

The intent was not to start any arguments. I appreciate everyones input and after careful consideration I am leaning towards a Sako with the S&B.
I don't want to make a lot of modifications after I purchase this rifle.
The main reason I am buying this is that I have over 1500 rounds of Winchester Supreme Match 168 gr. Sierra HPBT ammo that I can't justify running through a SOCOM II.
I've also wanted to get into long range shooting for fun, only competing against myself, nothing more.
I thank everyone for the responses and appreciate all input. I'll post some photos when I get everything.

 

[ullie]

I appreciate everyones input and after careful consideration I am leaning towards a Sako with the S&B.
I don't want to make a lot of modifications after I purchase this rifle.

...the SAKO TRG 22/42 is a direct and slightly improved decendant of the SAKO TRG 21/41...these are purpose built rifles designed ground up for one purpose only...to hit accurately at range as part of a sniper weapons system...the SAKO and Accuracy International series are argueabley the best of the best...neither one requires any modifications or enhancements...they are durable and reliable under any conditions...hot or cold...wet or dry...and you can expect to consistently get sub 1/2 MOA accuracy out to the practical range of the cartrage...in fact..i've seen qualified marksmen shoot ~1/4 MOA with these weapons...consistently...

...as far as optics...i would personally go with a Nightforce...there is no need to spend the extra money on an S&B...honestly...you won't be able to tell the difference in clarity or reliable repeatable function...and i would go with a 50 mm objective so that you won't have any mounting issues...big isn't always better...but lower to the bore axis is...the difference @22 x between the 56mm and 50mm objective is only 0.27mm in the diameter of the exit pupil...and the difference becomes even less significant at the lower power settings...

 

[GoldenRhin0]

Lest we not forgot to pay homage to the .270 Winchester for LRT applications. The Remmy I built for LRT is in .270 Winchester and is a wonder runner at 1000 or less yds. That's right..I said 1000!!! I chose the .270 for two reasons 1) it's very excellent ballistics and 2) it's not your everyday, common LRT caliber. I have personally logged a 1050yd kill shot on a coyote with her and proved her on numerous targets. Just as a point of reference, I also have a Van Orden Sniper, Pre-64 (1954), Winchester Model 70 with Van Orden stamped right on the side. They were using .270 prior to LRT being dominated by 30 caliber and better bullets.

Anyways, I crowned her with a Leoupold (sp?) Mark4 M3 MilDot Ret, 3.5-10x40mm in Badger Ordance rings and Badger Ordance 20MOA cant riser. But the magic is in the custom Kenton Industriesturrets. I ordered the Military style and had them build it to the load I'm using for LRT which is none other than Sierra's accuracy load for the MatchKing HPBT bullets.

Range/Wind, Dial, Shoot! If my rangefinder runs out of batts I have a trusty Marine Mil-Dot Slide scale for ranging with MilDot's.

I know there are better ballistics in the 30 cal. bullets pushing out past 1200yds (.270 is dropping over 243in. at 1000yds) but for 1000 or less..I just can't see anything else. Lighter ammo to carry, lighter rifle to carry and if it will burst a watermelon that far away...it's got plenty of skull popping ability as well :twisted:

[edit] just for convo sake...I plan on upgrading my LRT experience in the near future to the new Barrett 98B 338LM. 8)

Other things to consider are:
1- you can build the same rifle I described based upon just about any action you like. Remington, Winchester, Nesika Bay, FN Special Police, Viper, Bat, etc.

2- you can choose any long range caliber you like.
223 (fast twist), 243 Winchester 308Winchester,6mm XC, 6mm BR, 260 Rem, 6.5 Grendel, 6.5 Creedmoor, 6.5-284 Win, 6.5x55 Swiss, 30-06 Sprg, 7mm Rem Mag, 300Win Mag, 338 Lapua

You don't need a heavy recoil caliber to achieve success at long range. Just a quality caliber and components. The old standby's have the advantage of established ballistics tables like the 223, 308, 30-06, 300WM and others that have been shot competitively for decades. Some of the newer calibers might require you to develop some of your own ballistics data. The diminutive 6BR is quite successful at 1000 yards and is very pleasant to shoot. I have more that one rifle chambered in that caliber and one was set up as a 1000 yard rifle. Fast twist with long heavy bullets with excellent accuracy/little recoil.
Its important to pick something you can get quality brass/bullets for. Look at the statistical data/ equipment lists for the 1000 yard shooters and F-Class shooters. They're using the best components available and their choice of calibers are listed too.

good luck with your choices.