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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Parade magazine today has a poll that asks "should suspected terrorists be allowed to buy guns" as I type this it is 61% "YES" suspected terrorists SHOULD be allowed to buy guns!!
YAY !!

if you would like to vote... here it is!!

http://www.parade.com/news/intelligence ... apons.html

thanks!! and please spread the word!
 

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Innocent until proven guilty.

A suspect, even one suspected of terrorism (or even more vague, ties to terrorism), has still not been convicted of anything. So, I voted yes; because if today they take away someone's right to self-defense for this it then sets up a precedent and tomorrow they will take it away from anyone for anything, not just suspicion of terrorism.

As an example, see this link: http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=94803 What's to stop them from simply throwing the name of every living veteran on the terrorist watchlist since being a veteran is enough to incur suspicion? The first sentence in the article is a hyperlink to the Homeland Security report; it basically says that if you are white and a veteran then you are more likely to be a terrorist than any other demographic.

After all, as the article warned, a politically motivated Washington apparatchik could simply throw your name (or your name is similar enough to someone else's who might deserve to be on it) on the list and..."POOF!"... your 2A rights are gone. You will have no recourse; you can't fight it in court since no charges have been filed and the terrorist watchlist is secret and subject to National Security protections clauses, so you can't FOIA your name and find out why you are on it. A seller will simply call in your background check and say you are denied and you will never know why.

"He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." - Thomas Paine
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
exactly! this is the most openly slanted "poll" i have seen surprising, even for parade mag. they must be getting desperate! next they will publish how the American people are so stupid that they want to arm terrorists! and thus should have all guns confiscated.
If they could add 2+2 and see that the press is the next freedom to go......
 

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They should follow up this survey with another:

"Should Suspected Terrorists be Given Commerical Aircraft Flying Licenses and High Explosives..... :twisted:
 

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I have a few more questions to add to the poll:

Should a suspected terrorist be allowed to go to church or mosque to practice religion?

Should a suspected terrorist be allowed to vote?

Should a suspected terrorist be allowed to express freedom of speech?

Should a suspected terrorist be allowed to work for a national magazine (such as Parade) and write or contribute to articles?
 

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scoom said:
I have a few more questions to add to the poll:

Should a suspected terrorist be allowed to go to church or mosque to practice religion?

Should a suspected terrorist be allowed to vote?

Should a suspected terrorist be allowed to express freedom of speech?

Should a suspected terrorist be allowed to work for a national magazine (such as Parade) and write or contribute to articles?
Exactly! To be honest they should have phrased the question differently. Anti-gun types see the object, firearms, and divorce it from the right which protects its ownership. I would have put the poll question like this:

Should someone on the terrorist watchlist be deprived of any of their Constitutionally-protected rights even though it violates the 4th Amendment (deprived of property in the form of a gun without an actual warrant to confiscate it), the 5th Amendment (due process, or not having any rights taken away until a trial by jury), and the 6th Amendment (right to a trial by jury and facing one's accusers as well as seeing and contesting the evidence brought against them) by virtue of someone having a suspicion rather than charges actually being filed?

I'm betting that if they had thought of the right, 2A, and not simply the effect, gun ownership, then they might have more honestly phrased the question and shown what a slippery slope it is they are advocating...or not.
 

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Another thing to think about is just what is a terrorist these days. There is documents and statements made by the FBI, department of home land security and other agencies that suggest Muad'dib might be one for having quoted the Constitution, or me for having pointed that out.
 

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So I guess the poll shows that the American people feel that suspected terrorists should be able to buy guns but regular law abiding citizens shouldnt
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
It seems that they have disconnected any "yes" votes to get the numbers they want. it's now 76percent against people being able to buy guns.
 

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The erosion of our rights will only pick up speed. This constant idiocy - the slanted questions (like the old police joke - so do you still beat your wife?) - will only lead to the sheeple bleating what ever response the communists lead them to.
 

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restoring said:
The erosion of our rights will only pick up speed. This constant idiocy - the slanted questions (like the old police joke - so do you still beat your wife?) - will only lead to the sheeple bleating what ever response the communists lead them to.
I couldn't have said it better bro...well except for the communism part...it's been dead for 20 years
 

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bigtrey37 said:
restoring said:
The erosion of our rights will only pick up speed. This constant idiocy - the slanted questions (like the old police joke - so do you still beat your wife?) - will only lead to the sheeple bleating what ever response the communists lead them to.
I couldn't have said it better bro...well except for the communism part...it's been dead for 20 years
Quite the contrary - the evils of communism are alive and well, and unfortunately - here in the U.S.A.

http://www.cpusa.org/


They are active. They have never given up. It was predicted in their manifesto decades ago that they would achieve much of what ails this country today.

Look up the 45 communist goals of 1963, or read them here...

Any of these look applicable to what we see today in our Great Republic?

1963 Communist Goals [my comments are enclised within these brackets]

The communist goals were entered into the Congressional record by Albert Herlong, Jr. (a Floridian who served in Congress from 1949-69).

1 ) US acceptance of coexistence as the only alternative to atomic war.

2 ) US willingness to capitulate in preference to engaging in atomic war.

3 ) Develop the illusion that total disarmament by the US would be a demonstration of "moral strength." [isn't obama trying this one now?]

4 ) Permit free trade between all nations regardless of Communist affiliation and regardless of whether or not items could be used for war.

5 ) Extension of long term loans to Russia and Soviet Satellites.

6 ) Provide American aid to all nations regardless of Communist domination.

7 ) Grant recognition of Red China, and admission of Red China to the UN. [not only in the u.n. - but on several key councils now including PERMANENT member of the security council!)

8 ) Set up East and West Germany as separate states in spite of Khrushchev's promise in 1955 to settle the Germany question by free elections under supervision of the UN.

9 ) Prolong the conferences to ban atomic tests because the US has agreed to suspend tests as long as negotiations are in progress.

10 ) Allow all Soviet Satellites individual representation in the UN.

11 ) Promote the UN as the only hope for mankind. If its charter is rewritten, demand that it be set up as a one world government with its own independent armed forces. (Some Communist leaders believe the world can be taken over as easily by the UN as by Moscow. Sometimes these two centers compete with each other as they are now doing in the Congo). [this is happening as we speak, it's been going on for years]

12 ) Resist any attempt to outlaw the Communist Party.

13 ) Do away with loyalty oaths.

14 ) Continue giving Russia access to the US Patent Office.

15 ) Capture one or both of the political parties in the US. [well, we know they got the democratic party]

16 ) Use technical decisions of the courts to weaken basic American institutions, by claiming their activities violate civil rights.

17 ) Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for Socialism, and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers associations. Put the party line in text books.

18 ) Gain control of all student newspapers.

19 ) Use student riots to foment public protests against programs or organizations which are under Communist attack.

20 ) Infiltrate the press. Get control of book review assignments, editorial writing, policy-making positions. [done]

21) Gain control of key positions in radio, TV & motion pictures.[done]

22 ) Continue discrediting American culture by degrading all form of artistic expression. An American Communist cell was told to "eliminate all good sculpture from parks and buildings," substitute shapeless, awkward, and meaningless forms.

23 ) Control art critics and directors of art museums. "Our plan is to promote ugliness, repulsive, meaningless art."[n.e.a.]

24 ) Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them "censorship" and a violation of free speech and free press.

25 ) Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography, and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio and TV. [done]

26 ) Present homosexuality, degeneracy, and promiscuity as "normal, natural, and healthy." [done]

27 ) Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with "social" religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity, which does not need a "religious crutch." [mostly done]

28 ) Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the grounds that it violates the principle of "separation of church and state." [mostly done]

29 ) Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a worldwide basis. [constantly ongoing]

30 ) Discredit the American founding fathers. Present them as selfish aristocrats who had no concern for the "common man". [remember our own government referred to them as terrorists]

31 ) Belittle all forms of American culture and discourage the teaching of American history on the ground that it was only a minor part of "the big picture": Give more emphasis to Russian history since the Communists took over.

32 ) Support any socialist movement to give centralized control over any part of the culture - - education, social agencies, welfare programs, mental health clinics, etc.[constantly ongoing]

33 ) Eliminate all laws or procedures, which interfere with the operation of the Communist apparatus.

34 ) Eliminate the House Committee on Un-American Activities.[done]

35 ) Discredit and eventually dismantle the FBI.

36 ) Infiltrate and gain control of more unions.[ongoing]

37 ) Infiltrate and gain control of big business.

38 ) Transfer some of the powers of arrest from the police to social agencies. Treat all behavioral problems as psychiatric disorders which no one but psychiatrists can understand or treat.[ongoing]

39 ) Dominate the psychiatric profession and use mental health laws as a means of gaining coercive control over those who oppose Communist goals.

40 ) Discredit the family as an institution. Encourage promiscuity and easy divorce.[constantly ongoing]

41 ) Emphasize the need to raise children away from the negative influence of parents. Attribute prejudices, mental blocks and retarding of children to suppressive influence of parents.

42 ) Create the impression that violence and insurrection are legitimate aspects of the American tradition; that students and special interest groups should rise up and make a "united force" to solve economic, political, or social problems.[ongoing]

43 ) Overthrow all colonial governments before native populations are ready for self-government.

44 ) Internationalize the Panama Canal.

45 ) Repeal the Connally Reservation so the US can not prevent the World Court from seizing jurisdiction over domestic problems. Give the World Court jurisdiction over domestic problems. Give the World Court jurisdiction over nations and individuals alike.[read it for yourself and you decide]
 

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Evil is alive and well, and some of the evil that is alive and well is common to the evil that was inherent in communism, but stretching those two to suggest communism is alive and well is a bit fancifull.

To be clear, the Soviet government has fallen, The Chinese communist system has stopped pretending to be communist.

Our goal in VietNam was to stand up to the communists who were trying to convert small and poor countries to communism, and it worked. We made it clear that we would fight any attempts by the Soviets or the Chinese to take over countries, and since VietNam, not a single country has fallen to communism (Venezuela is not due to Chinese or Soviet influence).

You can claim a big list of communistic goals, but to think that any movement in the world toward those goals is due to the communists is rooting for the loosing side a little too long.

I once claimed my dog was trained, because every time he would sit down, I'd say "Sit".....

1 ) US acceptance of coexistence as the only alternative to atomic war. Progress Report: FAIL on that one, we bankrupted the Soviet Union, and the Chinese are communists in name only ....

2 ) US willingness to capitulate in preference to engaging in atomic war. Progress Report: FAIL, point is moot. The US won the war without letting it get to an atomic struggle.
3 ) Develop the illusion that total disarmament by the US would be a demonstration of "moral strength." [isn't obama trying this one now?] Progress Report: No anti-gun laws have passed since Obama was elected, and the Haller decision is poised to make the laws more pro-gun.

4 ) Permit free trade between all nations regardless of Communist affiliation and regardless of whether or not items could be used for war. Progress Report: FAIL. Cuba still does not have free trade. We do trade freely with former Soviet sattelites, but note that they are 'former'.

5 ) Extension of long term loans to Russia and Soviet Satellites. Progress Report: FAIL. See #4

6 ) Provide American aid to all nations regardless of Communist domination. Progress Report: No change. The US has been providing aid to all countries since before Communism, and continues to do so now.

7 ) Grant recognition of Red China, and admission of Red China to the UN. [not only in the u.n. - but on several key councils now including PERMANENT member of the security council!) Progress Report: China is getting less red by the minute.

8 ) Set up East and West Germany as separate states in spite of Khrushchev's promise in 1955 to settle the Germany question by free elections under supervision of the UN. Progress Report: Fail. "Mr Gorbachev, tear down that wall."

9 ) Prolong the conferences to ban atomic tests because the US has agreed to suspend tests as long as negotiations are in progress.

10 ) Allow all Soviet Satellites individual representation in the UN. Progress Report: Updated goal ... insert word "former" in front of "Soviet Satellites" to make it look as if we're not failing on every damn thing.

11 ) Promote the UN as the only hope for mankind. If its charter is rewritten, demand that it be set up as a one world government with its own independent armed forces. (Some Communist leaders believe the world can be taken over as easily by the UN as by Moscow. Sometimes these two centers compete with each other as they are now doing in the Congo). [this is happening as we speak, it's been going on for years] Progress Report: FAIL The UN has no power

12 ) Resist any attempt to outlaw the Communist Party. Progress Report: The US Constitution still guarantees that the Communist Party may exist.

13 ) Do away with loyalty oaths. Progress Report: FAIL The constitution still allows you to pledge an oath of loyaly.

14 ) Continue giving Russia access to the US Patent Office. Progress Report: WIN. The US is still publishing all patents, same as they were for 150 years before communism came along

15 ) Capture one or both of the political parties in the US. [well, we know they got the democratic party] Progress Report: Obama's second term isn't looking good.

16 ) Use technical decisions of the courts to weaken basic American institutions, by claiming their activities violate civil rights. Progress Report: FAIL. Soviet institutions collapsed before American ones did

17 ) Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for Socialism, and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers associations. Put the party line in text books.

18 ) Gain control of all student newspapers.

19 ) Use student riots to foment public protests against programs or organizations which are under Communist attack. Progress Report: Have not had any student riots in the past 20 years.

20 ) Infiltrate the press. Get control of book review assignments, editorial writing, policy-making positions. [done] Progress Report: Well, except maybe for FOX, though we think we might get Geraldo.

21) Gain control of key positions in radio, TV & motion pictures.[done]

22 ) Continue discrediting American culture by degrading all form of artistic expression. An American Communist cell was told to "eliminate all good sculpture from parks and buildings," substitute shapeless, awkward, and meaningless forms. Progress Report: Turns out this was a practical joke played on that cell, because if they were true communists, they wouldn't know how to recognize good art in the first place ...

23 ) Control art critics and directors of art museums. "Our plan is to promote ugliness, repulsive, meaningless art."[n.e.a.] Progress Report: WIN We managed to promote the ugly, repulsice, and meaningless art of Madonna!.

24 ) Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them "censorship" and a violation of free speech and free press. Progress Report: Porn is alive and well, but so is free speech.

25 ) Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography, and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio and TV. [done]

26 ) Present homosexuality, degeneracy, and promiscuity as "normal, natural, and healthy." [done]

27 ) Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with "social" religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity, which does not need a "religious crutch." [mostly done] Progress Report: All boys who were abused by the Catholic church were actually communist plants. Plan seems to be working. Keep it up.

28 ) Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the grounds that it violates the principle of "separation of church and state." [mostly done, though not by us]

29 ) Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a worldwide basis. [constantly ongoing, though no progress made]

30 ) Discredit the American founding fathers. Present them as selfish aristocrats who had no concern for the "common man". [remember our own government referred to them as terrorists] Progress Report: Washington, and Lincoln still standing tall, though we have spread the story that Jefferson was a communist plant.

31 ) Belittle all forms of American culture and discourage the teaching of American history on the ground that it was only a minor part of "the big picture": Give more emphasis to Russian history since the Communists took over. Progress Report: We just realized that we can't achieve goal #30 unless we teach history. Who the F**k is writing these stupid goals anyhow?

32 ) Support any socialist movement to give centralized control over any part of the culture - - education, social agencies, welfare programs, mental health clinics, etc.[constantly ongoing]

33 ) Eliminate all laws or procedures, which interfere with the operation of the Communist apparatus.

34 ) Eliminate the House Committee on Un-American Activities.[done]

35 ) Discredit and eventually dismantle the FBI. Progress Report: Any day now.

36 ) Infiltrate and gain control of more unions.[ongoing]

37 ) Infiltrate and gain control of big business. Pretty much a FAIL there, unless we try to claim that we had infiltrators inside Enron and the big banks, and BP ...

38 ) Transfer some of the powers of arrest from the police to social agencies. Treat all behavioral problems as psychiatric disorders which no one but psychiatrists can understand or treat.[ongoing, though zero progress to date]

39 ) Dominate the psychiatric profession and use mental health laws as a means of gaining coercive control over those who oppose Communist goals. FAIL

40 ) Discredit the family as an institution. Encourage promiscuity and easy divorce.[constantly ongoing] WIN. Unfortunately, most Americans also encourage promiscuity, so there is no divergence of ideals there.

41 ) Emphasize the need to raise children away from the negative influence of parents. Attribute prejudices, mental blocks and retarding of children to suppressive influence of parents.

42 ) Create the impression that violence and insurrection are legitimate aspects of the American tradition; that students and special interest groups should rise up and make a "united force" to solve economic, political, or social problems.[ongoing] Partial win. We have the fraternity system throwing wild parties, which is sort of like violence, and after they drink enough beer, they do get all philosophical, and when they run out of money to buy beer, the sympathize with economic problems, and when they can't get laid, it is a social problem, but then they pass out and make no progress on the other issues.

43 ) Overthrow all colonial governments before native populations are ready for self-government. Were Iraq and Afghanistan colonial?
44 ) Internationalize the Panama Canal. No progress. Panama is still sovereign, and still owns the canal.

45 ) Repeal the Connally Reservation so the US can not prevent the World Court from seizing jurisdiction over domestic problems. Give the World Court jurisdiction over domestic problems. Give the World Court jurisdiction over nations and individuals alike.[read it for yourself and you decide] The World Court has seized juridiction of domestic problems and exerted control over nations or individuals a total of zero times ... but we're continuing to hope.
 

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It astounds me to see that anyone believes communism is dead.

The only people that I have met in person who believe that to be the truth are the ones who call it 'socialism', and most of them like it, and want it here in the U.S.A.

Not saying you two are like that, but I find it hard to believe that intelligent people honestly think it's dead.

7art - check your yellow comments - I can understand if you were attempting humor, but if you're actually rebutting then some are incorrect.
 

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Communism is not dead, it is simply being morphed into something that sounds more palatable to the people.


Again........ :twisted: :roll:
 

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TommyGunn said:
Communism is not dead, it is simply being morphed into something that sounds more palatable to the people.


Again........ :twisted: :roll:
Actually, communism, at least pure Marxist communism has never existed. Communism is actually not a form of government. Marx defined communism as the point in which all people were made equal and then the need for government no longer existed and it would melt away. Of course this never happened since Marx said several steps need to occur before all people became equal and communism organically flourished among people.

He even posited that capitalism is the quickest way to communism; it would inevitably be controlled by a few powerful people and institutions (the bourgeoisie) who would rig the system for their own benefit and it would lead to panics, recessions, depressions, vast wealth disparities, etc. All these would cause upheaval and bitterness among the majority of people (the proletariat) who would clamor for the step-by-step dismantling of capitalism through market control and regulations, social welfare schemes, wealth distribution, and other strong government intervention...until the point where the economy was simply an extension of government activity. Sounds familiar?

Marx in his Communist Manifesto said that the best thing communists could do in western Europe was to simply stand back and watch the train wreck and then when the government was so indebted, weak, and at the point of collapse step in and take the reins. Then the "equalization" of classes and the liquidation of reactionaries (religious leaders, teachers, the business class, gentry, the bourgeoisie, intellectuals in any field except Marxist thought, etc.) could begin. After that, indoctrination of the surviving non-believers and children so that in a few generations the government would disappear as everyone would barter their labor/goods for what they need and people would be perfect and no government would be necessary. Of course, the shortfall of Marx's logic was that the world he envisioned could not contain people since they would be the ones who mess it up.

But most socialist or collectivist people would never say the government should disappear or even want it to at the end of this collectivist rainbow...which is why I think communist and communism are misnomers. Referring to Marx's miscalculation about human wants and desires, when the people who call themselves communist get power they never want to let go...so Marx's blueprint has failed every time because, while a lot of people may want communism, those responsible for imposing it are invariably tempted to tyranny because they are human.

Also, communists, pure communists, do not believe in property, that is, everything goes to the person who needs it most at a particular point in time rather having a durable claim upon something and besides, in a pure communist society there will be no institution to decide claims of property rights in any case. Socialists do believe in property only that it is not private, it is held collectively, usually by the state to assign it to individuals for use but not actual ownership.

To me it seems that socialism is not morphing it is only becoming more acceptable or en vogue.
 

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Muad'dib said:
TommyGunn said:
Communism is not dead, it is simply being morphed into something that sounds more palatable to the people.


Again........ :twisted: :roll:
Actually, communism, at least pure Marxist communism has never existed. Communism is actually not a form of government. Marx defined communism as the point in which all people were made equal and then the need for government no longer existed and it would melt away. Of course this never happened since Marx said several steps need to occur before all people became equal and communism organically flourished among people. ..........
To me it seems that socialism is not morphing it is only becoming more acceptable or en vogue.

The former Soviet Union was about as close to "Communist" as I care to see. Communism is a lousy economic system but a good way for a small group of people to control large masses -- and I think that was what was intended, and was what happened, in both the former USSR and even now in China.
You are right about the leaders never actually wanting to give away any power, but I believe Marx very much knew that, and never intended his "theory" to be anything more than a nebulous promise to be held over the heads of the "workers" to keep them in line simply so the rulers could remain in power.
Red China is still communist although it has certainly undergone a lot of reforms which allow it to become more economically viable in some ways .... although their regime still rules with an iron hand.
There may be no "true" communist" government .... but our country is hardly "pure" republic, or "democratoc republic" ... or whatever one might wish to call it, either.

Socialism may becoming more "acceptable" .... and the next generation and their sons will rue the day .....
 
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