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What was cause of such bad groupings

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Discussion Starter #1
OK, I took the Classic556 with Burris 3x ACOG out to sight in last weekend. I went with my brother who was Marine sniper for 10 years, but hasn't fired a rifle in 15 years. We setup targets at 80 yards and fired from standing position. Using Tula ammo, we consistently got ~12 inch groupings. This was disappointing after reading so many that had 1 inch groupings at 100 yards. So my question is:
 

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goo said:
OK, I took the Classic556 with Burris 3x ACOG out to sight in last weekend. I went with my brother who was Marine sniper for 10 years, but hasn't fired a rifle in 15 years. We setup targets at 80 yards and fired from standing position. Using Tula ammo, we consistently got ~12 inch groupings. This was disappointing after reading so many that had 1 inch groupings at 100 yards. So my question is:
you know the old saying, "everyone is a liar except me and you, and i'm not too sure about you."...?

people reporting 1" groups at 100yd. are *generally* liars. not saying it is impossible, but like many other military-pattern rifles the 556 is not a sub-minute gun, and much of the ammo folks report using is only good for 3 or 4 minutes.

that said, 12" is outside the ballpark of what i would consider acceptable, provided it is the firearm and not the user. i'd expect groups of a little less than 1/2 that from common (non-match) ammo, to about 1/4 of that.
 

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Seriously, you expect your rifle to shoot well with Tula ammo just because it is the cheapest ammo you can find anywhere?

Tula Ammo is manufactured in the same Tula factory that makes Wolf branded ammo, none of which is noted for its match quality accuracy.

What specific Tula ammo is it that gives you consistent 12" groups @ 80 yards? What grain bullet is it, is it FMJ and are the bullets bi-metal? Are the steel cartridges labeled".223"?

I certainly do not want any of this pathetic ammo (no matter how cheap it is) after reading your range report of it.

BTW, none of my SIGSs, or any other rifles I've ever owned shoot 12" groups at 80 yards, except for my Remington 1100 with full choke..... :wink:
 

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Ummmmm. My comments about this thread would have to be this:

*hint #1 - When shooting your rifle for accuracy don't do it in a standing, non supported position at 80 yards.

*hint #2 - Don't use shitty ammo if your checking your rifle's intrinsic accuracy potential.

*hint #3 - Take a carbine course. Any course, anywhere. Just get out and shoot and through that, you'll obtain the skills necessary to better judge the accuracy potential of yourself, and your rifle.
 

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SkyPup said:
Seriously, you expect your rifle to shoot well with Tula ammo just because it is the cheapest ammo you can find anywhere?

Tula Ammo is manufactured in the same Tula factory that makes Wolf branded ammo, none of which is noted for its match quality accuracy.

What specific Tula ammo is it that gives you consistent 12" groups @ 80 yards? What grain bullet is it, is it FMJ and are the bullets bi-metal? Are the steel cartridges labeled".223"?

I certainly do not want any of this pathetic ammo (no matter how cheap it is) after reading your range report of it.

BTW, none of my SIGSs, or any other rifles I've ever owned shoot 12" groups at 80 yards:


I know all about Tula ammo, its origins, steel case, etc (we were using 55gr FMJ). But wasn't sure if the ammo explain the accuracy, hence the question and poll. If you really think cheap ammo out of an accurate gun/barrell can vary by 12 inches then select 'ammo' for your answer. I will try next time with some better ammo I just purchased.

When out plinking, I just don't have the budget to buy 500 rounds of $0.70 ammo for an afternoon at the farm ($375), hence the Tula. In fact, even at $0.24 a shot, the Tula cost $120 (and my brother didn't pitch in or buy me a beer)

*hint #3 - Take a carbine course. Any course, anywhere. Just get out and shoot and through that, you'll obtain the skills necessary to better judge the accuracy potential of yourself, and your rifle.
I've got to think 10 years as a highly decorated sniper in the U.S. military has to be better than a 'carbine course.' My brother had the same accuracy. And yes, he was sober.
 

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What I'd like to know is how did you ever manage to even zero in your Burris 3X ACOG on your SIG 556 if the best group you have been able to shot with this rifle-scope combination is 12" @ 80 yards???? :shock:

Basically, your SIG 556 with the Burris 3X ACOG and Tula ammo in the hands of a highly experienced trained sniper is a 15" 100 yard combo....not good.
 

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[quote="goo"

I've got to think 10 years as a highly decorated sniper in the U.S. military has to be better than a 'carbine course.' My brother had the same accuracy. And yes, he was sober.[/quote]

Goo, there is your answer, sounds like all variables removed with your brother at the handle. switch up your ammo and you'll be fine. These 1/7 twists don't like 55gr's. good quality or bad quality, they just don't like 55 gr ammo
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Goo, there is your answer, sounds like all variables removed with your brother at the handle. switch up your ammo and you'll be fine. These 1/7 twists don't like 55gr's. good quality or bad quality, they just don't like 55 gr ammo
I think you are probably right that it is the ammo. I have consistently read that Sig556 doesn't like 55grain and obviously not cheap Russian mail-order bride crap.

But it is amazing to think to a bullet can come out of a straight barrel and vary that much at close range. Prior to this gun, I have never used cheap ammo before and usually use bolt-action, so I guess I was just surprised by the result. Comparing these results to the 1 inch groupings was probably apples to orange since cheap ammo and standing.
 

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If you are going out to sight-in your new scope on your 556 for the first time like you said you were, the least you can do is get some decent accurate ammo for sighting it in....even if it (the more accurate ammo) is going to cost more than the cheapest ammo you can possibly find.

Save the elCheapo Commie-Block ammo for trying to blast cans at the garbage dump. Although with this Tula ammo, your cans are going to have to be much much larger than Coke or Beer cans to actually be able to hit one now and then....
 

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Goo, I have to agree with Sarge and others. It may be you, it may be the ammo, it may be the Sig. The problem is that there are way too many variables in this equation to make any reasonable judgment.

I used Ullie's method to sight my 556, starting at 25 yards, moving to 50, and then final zero at 100 yards. However, I also used a bench and sand bags, on a nice day with little wind, to help take my skills a marksman out of the equation. I also used Hornady 75gr BTHP loads to take ammo out. Unfortunately, my current optic is a Leapers 3-9x34 that has a truly horrible mil-dot reticle and covers way too much paper at 100 yards.

What I found is that my Sig may be a 1 MOA rifle. I could cut a raged hole at 50 yards, but went to 3+ MOA at 100. We shall see once I get a new Trijicon AccuPoint. On that trip I also plan to compare the Hornady rounds to Federal Match ammo.

Also, one additional observation; the zero on my Sig would would move as the barrel heated up. On another trip, we were popping off a bunch of inexpensive Fiocchi 55gr V-MAX and zero moved by almost 4 inches at 100 yards. Yikes!

Best,
=Mark=
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Great info Mark. I live in Dallas also and curious what range you use? I would like a more controlled environment to really work on sighting in.

I live near Elm fork and love their sporting clays, but never tried their rifle range. The website says no FMJ's allowed.

Have you ever shot at Bass Pro indoor? Not sure if it is 50 yards.
 

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Next time you go to try to sight in your new scope on your rifle with some match grade OTM bullets, try sighting it in at 50 yards instead of 80 yards.
 

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goo said:
OK, I took the Classic556 with Burris 3x ACOG out to sight in last weekend. I went with my brother who was Marine sniper for 10 years, but hasn't fired a rifle in 15 years. We setup targets at 80 yards and fired from standing position. Using Tula ammo, we consistently got ~12 inch groupings. This was disappointing after reading so many that had 1 inch groupings at 100 yards. So my question is:
Here is some good ammo that should give you 1.5 inch groups or less at 100 yards even if you are not a professional sniper.

http://www.the-armory.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/product1338.html

As and example, these targets are from a known accurate AR-15 (The barrel used as the test vehicle was a 20â€
 

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goo said:
We setup targets at 80 yards and fired from standing position.
The bold portion is at least half of your problem.Tight groups require a proper rest, put that rifle on a bag and I bet your groups diminish in size considerably
 

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75gr ammo is the ammo my gun loves. see my post in this thread. I had good results from Prvi 75 match and great results with Hornady tap precision 75 gr. Using tap ammo my three shot group all touched(see pic below). All 55gr I tried was like 3-5 groups. I was ready to sell this piece of shit. Then I tried 75gr and was like, HELLO. Its a keeper now. Warning, 75 gr isn't cheap.

50yd Leop vx1 3-9. Wind left to right about 5mph. 60degrees F.
 

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I think the main problem is you were shooting unsupported standing.

Your groups will probably drop to at least 4moa if you would shoot supported in prone or sitting at a bench with a rest.
 

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Goo, Elm Fork Range is good, really good, but expensive. The fee is $15 and $5 more for hand gun. Really adds up if you shoot both, which almost always do when I have time. Also luv the sporting clay courses there, but like you said, they are separate.

I mostly go to Quail Creek Range now, which is just North of Texas Motor Speedway and just off 35W. They have a good gun range, not great, but you only pay $15 for all use, and you can buy a 10 pack for $110. I also really like their resident instructor. Only bad news is no shotguns. Also, they're building a new tactical range, which looks awesome, but it's LE only unless you are working with an instructor.

Re Bass Pro Shop's indoor range, I've never been. I mostly hunt and always prefer to be outside, unless the weather is total crap. But that's one of the great things about DFW, the weather is hardly ever that bad!

SkyPup and mpohio, thanks for posting range reports. Once I get a better scope, I will post Hornady vs Federal vs Fiocchi. All will be on a bench with bags, at 50 and 100 yards. Can't wait for my new scope!
 

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Wow, those are some expensive prices for ranges. You need to move to Ohio. Mine charges $25 a year. Yes, A year. Its 10 miles from my house and I have been there every day this week, so far. Of course shooting out my back door is free, but the farmer next door(country mile) says it scares his goats.

2 stocked ponds, 25 to 200yds rifle range, handgun range with Metal silhouette targets, 25 lane trap shooting range, and a 3D Archery Trail with more than thirty 3D targets. The let all calibers including 50bmg. No indoor range though, which sucks in the winter.

http://www.lcfishandgame.com/facilities

Side note: I just picked up a slightly used Caldwell led sled for $75. It works great, but you have to use 5round ar15 mags with it. Check ebay on the them. And try good 75gr to see what your rifle will do. I will never shoot wolf or other cheap crap through my guns. I use Pmc bronze for plinking. $6 a box for brass 223 isn't too bad. Use the link below to find some deals on ammo.

http://www.ammoengine.com/find/ammo/.22 ... _5.56x45mm
 

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sigdizzy said:
[quote="goo"

I've got to think 10 years as a highly decorated sniper in the U.S. military has to be better than a 'carbine course.' My brother had the same accuracy. And yes, he was sober.


Goo, there is your answer, sounds like all variables removed with your brother at the handle. switch up your ammo and you'll be fine. These 1/7 twists don't like 55gr's. good quality or bad quality, they just don't like 55 gr ammo[/quote]

Mine loves all sorts of 55gr and even 40gr stuff, in fact I haven't found any halfway decent 55gr that won't get at least 3-4MOA consistently.



I would try shooting it off a bench or prone before jumping to conclusions. I would guess as a sniper your brother didn't shoot only standing?

He is probably a better shot than I am to be honest, and I could very well be dead wrong, but 15 years is a long time to not shoot at all, and trying to shoot precisely while standing without the aid of a sling, with a fairly (nose) heavy rifle, is probably one of the more difficult things to do.


Like I said, your bro is probably a better shot than me, but I can shoot roughly 1 MOA groups off of a bench or prone (when I'm having a good day) but unsupported with a sling I'm lucky to hold within a foot and a half at 100 yards.

Add in the roughly 3-5moa error for the cheap tula ammo, and there ya go.
 

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Yea, it was actually his idea to shoot only standing.

I guess I should say "plinking at farm with new scope" rather than "sighting in new scope." This was very casual and I don't think he was really into it. But a little curious about the gun. He didn't say much about it.

Even with all the variables, I was surprised to have such large groupings and why I posted. I will definintely take to range for a real sighting.
 
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