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Discussion Starter #1
I've bought a few things from folks on here and up until now it's always been a pretty smooth process.

Someone recently listed items that I expressed interest in. We exchanged a few messages about the items and I asked for the address to send the requested U.S.P.S. money order to. I was given that information on 2010-06-23.

I bought the money order yesterday, 2010-06-25, and stuck it in the mailbox last night. Today I got a pm from the person in question saying they haven't heard from me and the items are all sold.

Damned good thing the postman hadn't hit my box yet and I was able to snatch the money order out of it before it went on it's way to the person in question. Now I'm out a few bucks for the money order, but that's better than the cost of the money order plus the $60 it was worth!

I would imagine that if someone is asking you what address you want the money order sent to, you could take that as a sale. If unsure, most people would verify that it's a sale by asking. A person isn't going to ask you for the address to send the damned money order to unless they're sending one.

My impression is he found someone willing to pay more, or over sold his stock - either way, that's low, and shoddy practice to wait until most people would have already mailed the money order but there is no way it could have gotten there yet!

Perhaps only using paypal should be the way to go.

Use caution.
 

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forum sales

I would like to know who it is, so I wont do business with them. thanks update, it is always good to get both sides...
 

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Discussion Starter #3
The person in question just pm'd me. In his 'defense'; I will post what he told me in order to explain what he did. This is what he sent:

Ad is posted in xdtalk, sigforum, snipershide, glocktalk, ar15. I saw my message w/ shipping address as read yesterday but got no response from you. One of the buyers has confirmed to buy if still available next wk, if you are still interested I'll let him know it has sold.


I responded with this:

I would not have asked you where to send the money order if I wasn't sending one. Asking where to send a money order isn't part of a decision making process, it's part of a transaction.

I wouldn't want you to do the same thing to someone else in order to sell the items to me.

You told me they were all sold - we'll just leave it that way.
 

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That sucks man, live and learn I guess.

Most forums have a list of people not to do business with or who have less than stellar business practice, they usually have a feedback forum for their users too who buy and sell, it would be nice to have one here I think to avoid the problems like you had.
 

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Well... I'm the guy he is referring to.

You find time to rant about me not selling you the mags, but you didn't have the courtesy of letting me know when you will send the payment. Like what you said, you got my address on the 23rd but you did not inform me when you plan on sending the payment, no communication at all until today. You bought the MO on the 25th yet again did not let me know about it. I even sent a follow up message if you are still interested on the 24th but got no response. I see you have time to make 12 posts here after you got my address, but no time to let me know when you will send the payment, or even confirm you got my address? 23, 24, 25, did not hear from you, and when I sent you a message today about the mags being sold you bitch about it and even broadcast it here.

restoring said:
My impression is he found someone willing to pay more, or over sold his stock - either way, that's low, and shoddy practice to wait until most people would have already mailed the money order but there is no way it could have gotten there yet!
I guess it is not "low, and shoddy practice" not to inform me when you plan to send the MO, or even confirm you got my address - just make me wait a couple of days or maybe a week, or until whenever you feel like sending it to me. Let's see what the "please read" sticky says...

ullie said:
...a little common courtesy will go a long way in life...as will doing the right thing when it comes to dealing with property and money...
The other person who is interested in the mags informed me that he can't send the payment until Wednesday (for which I give him credit for) and if they are still available by then he'll buy them. So I told him I'll hold it for him and that's when I sent you the message in the morning informing you that all the mags has sold. He then responded in the afternoon not to hold the mags and I got your message about having already bought the MO so I told you if you are still interested you can have them.

I still have the mags, in case I got your response or payment until Wednesday...



restoring said:
Asking where to send a money order isn't part of a decision making process, it's part of a transaction.
And so does confirming with the seller that you got their address and when you are sending payment. I have had a number of previous "deadbeat" buyers in other sales that have asked for payment info and after I sent it to them have not responded back. If you are really interested, let the seller know when you are paying and don't wait for 3 days and their email that the item you are buying is sold before you respond to their message.

$60 USPS MO fee does not cost a couple of bucks, it is $1.10, you must have overpaid in case you did buy it.

I have no time for this BS and this is not even the right place to bitch about it, so this will be my last response regarding this matter.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
tarugs said:
Well... I'm the guy he is referring to.

You find time to rant about me not selling you the mags, but you didn't have the courtesy of letting me know when you will send the payment. Like what you said, you got my address on the 23rd but you did not inform me when you plan on sending the payment, no communication at all until today. You bought the MO on the 25th yet again did not let me know about it. I even sent a follow up message if you are still interested on the 24th but got no response. I see you have time to make 12 posts here after you got my address, but no time to let me know when you will send the payment, or even confirm you got my address? 23, 24, 25, did not hear from you, and when I sent you a message today about the mags being sold you bitch about it and even broadcast it here.

restoring said:
My impression is he found someone willing to pay more, or over sold his stock - either way, that's low, and shoddy practice to wait until most people would have already mailed the money order but there is no way it could have gotten there yet!
I guess it is not "low, and shoddy practice" not to inform me when you plan to send the MO, or even confirm you got my address - just make me wait a couple of days or maybe a week, or until whenever you feel like sending it to me. Let's see what the "please read" sticky says...

ullie said:
...a little common courtesy will go a long way in life...as will doing the right thing when it comes to dealing with property and money...
The other person who is interested in the mags informed me that he can't send the payment until Wednesday (for which I give him credit for) and if they are still available by then he'll buy them. So I told him I'll hold it for him and that's when I sent you the message in the morning informing you that all the mags has sold. He then responded in the afternoon not to hold the mags and I got your message about having already bought the MO so I told you if you are still interested you can have them.

I still have the mags, in case I got your response or payment until Wednesday...

restoring said:
Asking where to send a money order isn't part of a decision making process, it's part of a transaction.
And so does confirming with the seller that you got their address and when you are sending payment. I have had a number of previous "deadbeat" buyers in other sales that have asked for payment info and after I sent it to them have not responded back. If you are really interested, let the seller know when you are paying and don't wait for 3 days and their email that the item you are buying is sold before you respond to their message.

$60 USPS MO fee does not cost a couple of bucks, it is $1.10, you must have overpaid in case you did buy it.

I have no time for this BS and this is not even the right place to bitch about it, so this will be my last response regarding this matter.
Well, you outed yourself - not sure why you chose to do that, but that is your decision. I wasn't 'bitching' here, just publicly reminding people to be cautious when transacting business online. You did this to yourself.

As for 'time to rant', um - like I said - asking for the address to send the money order to should have indicated that I was actually sending it. I've never met anyone in all the transactions I've completed online that did not take that as indication of a decision to buy when was buying, nor did I ever have any doubt that it indicated a decision to buy when people asked for my address to send me a money order.

However, instead of asking me to be sure, you did what you accused me of; i.e.- waited, without seeking any confirmation to assuage your own doubts, then wrote to me advising the items were all SOLD. Had I mailed the money order the day I bought it, it would not have reached you before you wrote back telling me the items were SOLD.

You sent me the address you wanted me to mail the money order to via pm on this forum at Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:25 pm.

You then sent me to following message via pm on this forum at Sat Jun 26, 2010 8:49 am. Quote" Haven't heard from you, Mags are now all SOLD."

I replied on Sat Jun 26, 2010 3:17 pm by sending you the following: Quote" What did you think the message asking for the address to send the money order to was about then?, mild curiosity?

Thank God I caught your message in time to PULL THE ENVELOPE OUT OF THE MAILBOX BEFORE THE POST OFFICE PICKED IT UP TODAY.

What was the deal? Find someone willing to pay more?

That was low."

Your response to this surprised me as much as you selling the mags out from under me in the first place. You replied on Sat Jun 26, 2010 3:31 pm. You appeared to offer to do the same thing to someone else in order to sell me the mags! Suddenly the SOLD items were available again??? Maybe I misunderstood your offer, but it seemed that's what you were about to do.

Quote" Ad is posted in xdtalk, sigforum, snipershide, glocktalk, ar15. I saw my message w/ shipping address as read yesterday but got no response from you. One of the buyers has confirmed to buy if still available next wk, if you are still interested I'll let him know it has sold."

If you had any doubt, why write to me saying that they are all SOLD??? Why not ask if I was indeed buying them or not?

Why then turn around and offer to yank them out from under someone else once I wrote about it in the forum?

My reply to you still stands. On Sat Jun 26, 2010 4:24 pm I sent this to you:

Quote "I would not have asked you where to send the money order if I wasn't sending one. Asking where to send a money order isn't part of a decision making process, it's part of a transaction.

I wouldn't want you to do the same thing to someone else in order to sell the items to me.

You told me they were all sold - we'll just leave it that way."

You claim you acted this way because of previous deadbeat buyers. Hmmm - so instead of confirming information because of your own fears, you'd rather assume the worst and alienate customers? Good luck with that policy. I'm sure you'll tell me it works great, and I'm sure it will - until you do this to too many people.

And as for the cost of the U.S.P.S. money order - I don't have a post office in my house, on my property, or even within walking distance.

My truck won't run without a steady supply of gasoline and it does take a little bit to drive to the post office and buy a money order from them. Thus, that gets factored into my total expenditure for the money order. I have successfully run businesses for quite some time - this is how true cost of an item is determined.

As for your claiming that you sent me a message on the 24th asking if I was still interested, I'm going to have to call you or the website out on that one - my inbox shows messages from the 23rd and up - the ONLY messages on the 24th are from someone else about a completely unrelated item. I received no message from you on the 24th, and no message from you at all asking if I was still interested.

As for messages from you, the one that you sent your address in came on Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:25 pm. The very next message from you is the one telling me the mags are all SOLD and that one came on Sat Jun 26, 2010 8:49 am.

I recently deleted much of my inbox because it was 100% full, but saved everything from you and from another member because I was in the process of purchasing items from both of you. I still have the message from you from the 23rd, but nothing between it and your message on the 26th.

I agree with ullie's post about consideration, but don't think you're the person to remind me about it. I am currently in the process of buying items from two other people. Both of them, along with every other person I've transacted business with understood that my asking where to send the money order indicated a decision to buy. If you didn't understand, perhaps you could have asked for clarification instead of assuming I would behave the way you imagined I should.
 

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Thats why I won't buy something unless its by EMT. Email money transfer. If I have the money in my account its sent to you instantly with a security question, to your email account. You should get on your US banks to set it up because it is great. And no more mis-communication like this thread.

Its called EMT. Email money transfer. Welcome to the 21st century.
 

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That hurts when a Canadian zings you with a technology burn. I forgot they have electricity up there now :p
 

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I sell a few odds and ends online. I'll say that until someone tells me "SOLD" I don't care what questions I've answered the item is not sold.

Restoring - it is a good warning to be mindful of how we operate business online. We can all use a good reminder.

But IMHO he was easily within his right if you never said <SOLD> and PM'd him a plan on when to send the MO.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
hrgrisso said:
I sell a few odds and ends online. I'll say that until someone tells me "SOLD" I don't care what questions I've answered the item is not sold.

Restoring - it is a good warning to be mindful of how we operate business online. We can all use a good reminder.

But IMHO he was easily within his right if you never said <SOLD> and PM'd him a plan on when to send the MO.
How "we" operate business online?

I've been doing that quite well for years, and this is quite literally the FIRST person that:

1. Did not understand that asking for the address means I'm sending the payment,

2. Did not exercise reasonable business acumen and instead chose to make assumptions instead of asking for verification/clarification when the assumption/misunderstanding was on his end.

Perhaps he could also use a good reminder to not assume. If you want people to be mindful of how "you" operate a business online, then it's your responsibility to make "your" business practices known and not hope that people will magically understand that you need special treatment.

Don't be a shill and try to place blame solely with me.
 

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Sorry man I think saying "its never happened before" doesn't cut it.

I think the buyer is responsible for ensuring communication exists with the seller and that both parties are clear. Just as often as threads like this happen where "Dbag didn't wait for me." we hear other posts about "guy told me he was ready to go and then nothing..."

I'm not trying to pick a fight, but don't think that just because you're mad, that you're right.

Now if you'd told him, I'll take it, and mail the MO on X date and he'd sold it. That would absolutely make him a dbag. thats not the case here.

Live and learn I suppose.
 

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hrgrisso said:
Sorry man I think saying "its never happened before" doesn't cut it.

I think the buyer is responsible for ensuring communication exists with the seller and that both parties are clear. Just as often as threads like this happen where "Dbag didn't wait for me." we hear other posts about "guy told me he was ready to go and then nothing..."

I'm not trying to pick a fight, but don't think that just because you're mad, that you're right.

Now if you'd told him, I'll take it, and mail the MO on X date and he'd sold it. That would absolutely make him a dbag. thats not the case here.

Live and learn I suppose.
+1

The buyer should have good communication about when the seller can expect payment. You're holding up his merchandise, he may be selling mags for food in these hard times (which I never endorse). You should be clear in stating when you intend to put the check in the mail, as it were.

The seller is within his rights to defend himself, he's not outting himself. This is a guilty before proven innocent attitude. Sellers are always going to have people enquiring and not follow up in a timely manner. If this were one of the busier sites can you imagine the kind of real nightmare you can cause without clear communication?

I think just saying "I'll take it" doesn't cut it. There has to be a clear conversation with the other party for a transaction to go smoothly.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Phazuka said:
hrgrisso said:
Sorry man I think saying "its never happened before" doesn't cut it.

I think the buyer is responsible for ensuring communication exists with the seller and that both parties are clear. Just as often as threads like this happen where "Dbag didn't wait for me." we hear other posts about "guy told me he was ready to go and then nothing..."

I'm not trying to pick a fight, but don't think that just because you're mad, that you're right.

Now if you'd told him, I'll take it, and mail the MO on X date and he'd sold it. That would absolutely make him a dbag. thats not the case here.

Live and learn I suppose.
+1

The buyer should have good communication about when the seller can expect payment. You're holding up his merchandise, he may be selling mags for food in these hard times (which I never endorse). You should be clear in stating when you intend to put the check in the mail, as it were.

The seller is within his rights to defend himself, he's not outting himself. This is a guilty before proven innocent attitude. Sellers are always going to have people enquiring and not follow up in a timely manner. If this were one of the busier sites can you imagine the kind of real nightmare you can cause without clear communication?

I think just saying "I'll take it" doesn't cut it. There has to be a clear conversation with the other party for a transaction to go smoothly.
Saying "I'll take it" just doesn't cut it?

Tell you what - go to a car lot, a retail store, any REAL place of business - ask about a good or service, then say "I'll take it" and see what the seller's reaction is.

Then see their reaction when you try to pull the b.s. you just posted - "Oh, sorry - I'll take it really doesn't cut it. I don't really want to buy it, I was just interested".

"I'll take it" doesn't clearly communicate a solid purchase commitment in your world?

As for communication, remember how that works?.... it's a two-way process.

My biggest issue is that based on his communication, he knew I wanted the mags...

We clarified that they would work with my pistol...

We agreed on the price...

I even re-sent the message verifying the model of pistol I have to insure that he received it and that I clarified they would work...

He answered my request for the address to send the funds to...

BUT - instead of letting me know he did not understand or had a question, he WAITED 48 hours then sent a message saying the items were SOLD.

That means if I had bought and mailed the money order the day he responded with his address, it would have been in the mail but could not have reached him when he sent the message to me that he had sold the items.

This was not an issue of holding up his merchandise. It was not an issue of him waiting and waiting for the money order to arrive that never did

I would have had to do a Western Union funds transfer or overnight that money order for it to have gotten to him before he SOLD the mags to someone else, and I'm not sure overnighting would have made it!

I didn't get any message asking me to confirm whether or not I was buying or if the money order was already sent. Nothing. Just a message saying SOLD-to someone else!

He was the one that wasn't sure. He was the one that didn't seek clarification when he was the one with a question.

He had already started the sales process with me, but in midstream changed customers without warning.

Your claim that it's the buyer's responsibility for ensuring communication exists is bull. It's both parties, not just one.

If either party is unsure or has a question, then the 'unsure' party is the one responsible for seeking clarification.

With all of the items I have sold, if I had a question - I immediately contacted the buyer. And as for the 'holding up his merchandise in these hard times' nonsense - anytime I have ever felt any doubt about a buyer's intention - I've asked the buyer for clarification. Sometimes, I've set a time limit; i.e.- I have to receive the funds within so many days or I have to be able to sell it to someone else.

And remember, he offered to yank them out from under another buyer after I started this thread and offered them back to me. What about the guy he was yanking them out from under?

As for the seller not 'outing' but 'defending' himself - he DID out himself. I didn't name him, just cautioned my fellow SIG enthusiasts to use care when dealing with people online. He chose to pop in and tell the rest of the forum who he is. It was not a 'guilty before proven innocent attitude" thing - it was a "hey guys, use caution - I think I almost got screwed" thing.

Selling his mags for food? What's next? He had to stop feeding hungry orphans to post the ad? He had to stop his cancer cure research to exchange pm's?

Saying it's never happened before is quite valid, because IT HASN'T. In the three transactions I am currently in, two of them are with people on this forum, and one with someone on another site. None of them had any problem with understanding the transaction. Neither has anyone in the past.

And it's not so much that he didn't understand - it's that he did not ask and SOLD the mags without seeking clarification, then told me about it.
:roll:
 

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Ullie has done a good job of setting etiquette standards on the non-FFL thread. Maybe he could add some suggestions for confirming the actual transaction.

SOLD = I am buying and will send the money within 3 days
WHERE DO I SEND THE MONEY = SOLD and the definition above
FOR SALE = I am selling
IT's YOURS = Only If the money arrives within 24 seconds
MOTIVATED SELLER = I'm selling in order to buy food
MOTIVATED BUYER = I've got wild pigs to shoot for dinner
Will SEND VIA EMAIL MONEY = My Canadian Dollar is worth more than the US Dollar and am getting a bargain. :shock:
 

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Discussion Starter #18
1stGenerationAmerican said:
Will SEND VIA EMAIL MONEY = My Canadian Dollar is worth more than the US Dollar and am getting a bargain. :shock:
ROTFLMAO -
 

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First let me say, I sell a lot of things over the Internet using E-Bay, forums, and other mediums. If I had a DOLLAR for everytime someone told me. "I'll take it" and then never paid for it, I could take a year off probably. If I had a DOLLAR for everytime something "appeared" to be paid for and then PayPal, E-Bay, or some other payment processing facility called me to say, hold up, that transaction is fraudulent, I could take six months off.

The internet is not like dealing with someone face-to-face. It never has been and most likely never will be.

Buyer and Seller beware! Nothing is sold until 7-10 days after its paid for in many cases...
 
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